Visual Pinball/Future Pinball BOTH Need to be Standardized.

[malarrya]

I downloaded your wheels to compare them to what I had,  you might wan to go through my set.

I replaced allot of the generic logos,  with redraws that match the image on the backglass.

I even did this for the Original tables.

Thanks, 32Assassin. Are these Future Pinball logos and are they located on the FTP or somewhere here on boards? I am still going through and replacing a lot of the logos with better/larger renditions from PINSIMDB, VPForums, and Google. I am currently going the the letter D so the set I have up on the FTP is not quite complete.

[32assassin]

I already did what you are doing, I got the wheels from PinSImb, VPfourms, PinballX FTP and wherever I could find them.

 

this is my final set

http://www.hyperspin-fe.com/files/file/12263-future-pinball/

 

for one reason or another I did not add this to the set

 

 

 

I compared all the images I found to the backglass and replaced any logo that did not match.

 

 

chances are the only wheels you will be missing are for the Original tables you added that I omitted from my XML.

 

 

[malarrya]

I already did what you are doing, I got the wheels from PinSImb, VPfourms, PinballX FTP and wherever I could find them.

 

this is my final set

http://www.hyperspin-fe.com/files/file/12263-future-pinball/

 

for one reason or another I did not add this to the set

Castlevania Vampire Rising (Original xxx).png

 

 

 

I compared all the images I found to the backglass and replaced any logo that did not match.

 

 

chances are the only wheels you will be missing are for the Original tables you added that I omitted from my XML.

Actually, there are quite a lot of differences as I have many tables that are ULTRA, Ultimate, Anniversary, or Special Editions of the same table. In most cases, I have a different (modded if you will) wheel image for these types of tables. I'll keep going through and finish my set then see where I am at compared to yours. In the end, I suppose we can pull our resources to make the most definitive set.

 

Oh, BTW, check out the XML DBs I've created from the tables I have. I did a lot of work trying to perfect the naming convention, fixing the spelling errors, and adding missing data to the database files. I tend to prefer the filename exclude the year but I have some wonderful programs I use to modify the XML data and the filenames.

[malarrya]

Is there a torrent for the tables?

Ninja, how about I share my collection with you via Google drive? Once you have them all, you can perhaps make a torrent as I am not on all the time in order to seed and I use my work pc (at home) to do a lot of the arcade testing and programming. 

[32assassin]

Actually, there are quite a lot of differences as I have many tables that are ULTRA, Ultimate, Anniversary, or Special Editions of the same table. In most cases, I have a different (modded if you will) wheel image for these types of tables. I'll keep going through and finish my set then see where I am at compared to yours. In the end, I suppose we can pull our resources to make the most definitive set.

 

Oh, BTW, check out the XML DBs I've created from the tables I have. I did a lot of work trying to perfect the naming convention, fixing the spelling errors, and adding missing data to the database files. I tend to prefer the filename exclude the year but I have some wonderful programs I use to modify the XML data and the filenames.

 

I added allot of the ULTRA, Ultimate, Anniversary, Special Editions to my table list but they where all added as the regular versions,  I did not include any duplicates in my XML.

 

the naming scheme was chosen because its the standard for Pinball cabinet media,  I'm currently changing the naming scheme of my VP to match the same scheme.

 

and you might encounter a few problems without it

 

Bally released 2 Monte Carlos

 

One in 1963 and the other in 1972,  Both tables cant have the same name of Monte Carlo (Bally)

 

http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1621

 

http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1623

[Tomkun]

I added allot of the ULTRA, Ultimate, Anniversary, Special Editions to my table list but they where all added as the regular versions,  I did not include any duplicates in my XML.

 

the naming scheme was chosen because its the standard for Pinball cabinet media,  I'm currently changing the naming scheme of my VP to match the same scheme.

 

and you might encounter a few problems without it

 

Bally released 2 Monte Carlos

 

One in 1963 and the other in 1972,  Both tables cant have the same name of Monte Carlo (Bally)

 

http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1621

 

http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1623

What is the naming scheme? Seems weird to not label different versions and very difficult to update. Why not stick with the naming scheme used in the packs of tables that are available for download elsewhere?

[32assassin]

What is the naming scheme? Seems weird to not label different versions and very difficult to update. Why not stick with the naming scheme used in the packs of tables that are available for download elsewhere?

 

this is funny

 

lets use Adams family as an example

 

the name I used Addams Family, The (Bally 1992)

 

XML name: Addams Family, The (Bally 1992)

Table Name: Addams Family, The (Bally 1992)

wheel name: Addams Family, The (Bally 1992)

 

tables available with name you like to use

 

Future Pinball

Zedpinball Physics 1.0: Addams Family GOLD 2.5b

The Addams Family ULTIMATE 1.02 Physics 2.6

Addams Family Pinball Gold Edition 2.5

The Addams Family 20th Anniversary Edition (MOD) 1.04

 

Visual Pinball versions

Addams Family Gold (PacDude) - remake 1.2.0

Addams Family (PacDude) 7.3.0

Addams Family 0.4.0

The Addams Family VP91X 2.0 2.0

The Addams Family VP91X 2.0.1 FS 2.0.1

Addams Family, The (Bally 1992).zip 1

Addams Family Gold VP 9 Fix (PacDude) 1.0

The Addams Family Gold (Williams 1994) DT VP99x SPv1.2 1.2

The Addams Family (Bally 1992) FS VP99x 1.0

The Addams Family (Bally 1992) PhysMod 1.1

The Addams Family Night Mod

The Addams Family (Bally 1992) 1

 

You can obviously eliminate allot of this because they are older versions VP8 VP9,  their is a VPX version.

 

VPX version name The Addams Family (Bally 1992) Version 1.0

 

You Honestly like to have a name like that in t he XML?

knowing that every time a new table version is released YOU WILL HAVE TO CHANGE THE NAME IN THE XML TO MATCH THE NEW TABLE NAME!!!!!!

 

its easier to download a table and rename it to match the XML then it is to update the name in the XML. keep in mind that if you change the name in the XML 

you will have to change the name off ALL YOUR MEDIA.

[Tomkun]

No need to get stroppy. I never indicated any preference other than remarking it seems hard to update, I just asked your reasoning. Keep your hair on. We are supposed to be collaborating after all.

 

Anyway, back to the topic. I don't care what format the filename in the XML has as I will rarely ever see it. Only the game name is shown in HyperSpin so that is what really matters in terms of presentation. The filenames are important for telling exactly which version of the file I have and if I need to update them.

I see your point regarding version numbers, although I disagree. I don't see your point in renaming all the different mods though why would I want a mod named as though it were the original table?

[blur]

32 <script language='javascript'> </script>

You Honestly like to have a name like that in t he XML?

knowing that every time a new table version is released YOU WILL HAVE TO CHANGE THE NAME IN THE XML TO MATCH THE NEW TABLE NAME!!!!!!

 

its easier to download a table and rename it to match the XML then it is to update the name in the XML. keep in mind that if you change the name in the XML 

you will have to change the name off ALL YOUR MEDIA.

 

32 if I remember correctly game name is matching artwork and description has to match table file name - so you can have many tables with same name and same artwork - only problem is - on the wheel they will look exactly the same - even the name will be shown from game name tag (which is not unique) and not from description (which is unique cause it is file name).

 

If you want to have artwork from the same table and not some generic one for all the adams families you need different naming scheme - and I usually want to see which adams table I'm opening.

 

Hyperpin standard for long time was Addams Family, The (Bally 1992) - so I don't know why anbody tried to reduce it to Addams Family, The (Bally) in the beginning of this thread.

 

But as i said if you want more Addams and you want to see different images - you have to have batter naming convention - there is no other option.

 

There were some old collections of everything on torents (games, roms, art) that had naming like  Addams Family, The (Bally) (1992) (author) (1.0.0)

Don't remember if it was mandatory to have three digits in version - or 1.0 was ok.

It is also good to have this convention if you want to know which table you have so that you don't download it again from vpforums, and of course - from which author.

 

Another equally good convention is to keep the begining from hyperpin and add author and version like - Addams Family, The (Bally 1992) author 1.0.0

 

It is a major PITA to change them whenever you get new table - but it is also PITA to have hyperspin or hyperpin at first place - but you compensate it with joy of playing new table that you just downloaded and all is part of vp experience, you will have to fiddle with table any way - cause you will hate layback that was used in the table, you'll have to fix it, when you fix it you will hate that table picture from artwork doesn't match your new layback - you will have to do print screen of it (only one key in my fplaunch does all of that), you will have to set replay levels, cause you want that knocker to fire when you make good score, ... and so on...

[32assassin]

No need to get stroppy. I never indicated any preference other than remarking it seems hard to update, I just asked your reasoning. Keep your hair on. We are supposed to be collaborating after all.

 

Anyway, back to the topic. I don't care what format the filename in the XML has as I will rarely ever see it. Only the game name is shown in HyperSpin so that is what really matters in terms of presentation. The filenames are important for telling exactly which version of the file I have and if I need to update them.

I see your point regarding version numbers, although I disagree. I don't see your point in renaming all the different mods though why would I want a mod named as though it were the original table?

 

I'm not stoppy, my hair is still on,  and I'm more than happy to collaborate and take suggestions.

 

Future Pinball and Visual Pinball are very unique systems. Any naming scheme you can come up with will have its flaws.

the naming scheme was chosen to have a uniform wheel set.  When I update a table I simply download it,  rename it to the name found in the XML, and update the video preview.

their is no need to update the XML and rename the rest of the media.  I have each table in a folder and their is a text file in the folder witch I renamed to the original name telling me what version of the table I saved.

 

And the point to me renaming the different mods.

I see all Mods as clones of the regular tables.  if you have a real Pinball table an you replace the bulbs with multi color LEDs,  you are not changing the rules or play of the pinball.

You are simply changing the aesthetics,  I only added one version of each table,  and I choose the best looking table. In most cases it was an Ultra or special edition.

 

 

I just don't see the point of attaching a name of ULTRA, Ultimate, Anniversary, Special Editions.  When the table does not exist in real life.

I would differentiate between 

Addams Family, The (Bally 1992)

Addams Family, The Gold Edition (Bally 1992)

 

since the real table exists, but again I only added one version of the table.

[32assassin]

 

 

Hyperpin standard for long time was Addams Family, The (Bally 1992) - so I don't know why anbody tried to reduce it to Addams Family, The (Bally) in the beginning of this thread.

 

 

I changed this because I wanted to have a unique name for the Visual Pinball Set

DT tables = Table Name (Manufacture)

FS tables = Table Name (Manufacture Year)

 

since VPX tables now run in both DT/FS.  It no longer makes sense to have unique names.

We need to have a uniform name so that we can use VPX tables for both Hypespin (Desktop) and Pinball Cabinets.

as you mentioned the Hyperpin Media name scheme was already established, that's why it was chosen.

[Guest]

I changed this because I wanted to have a unique name for the Visual Pinball Set

DT tables = Table Name (Manufacture)

FS tables = Table Name (Manufacture Year)

 

since VPX tables now run in both DT/FS.  It no longer makes sense to have unique names.

We need to have a uniform name so that we can use VPX tables for both Hypespin (Desktop) and Pinball Cabinets.

as you mentioned the Hyperpin Media name scheme was already established, that's why it was chosen.

 

 

Mentioned this over in the Future Pinball thread, but -

 

We need to use the name of the file in the relevant torrent set for the name attribute in the database - this keeps it super easy for matching tables to database entries.  It makes no sense to use anything other that the existing torrent file name for the name attribute.  All this does it make matching a pain in the butt.

 

As for the description tag (this is what you see in the FE and RL) any sensible name scheme that makes sense is cool with me.  Obviously we use no-intro style naming where we can, though this will be slightly different.  I really wouldn't spend too much time on that though, for me 'TABLE NAME (Manufacturer)' would seem the best way forward - with manufacturer replaced with 'original' if it's an original table.

[malarrya]

I just don't see the point of attaching a name of ULTRA, Ultimate, Anniversary, Special Editions.  When the table does not exist in real life.

I would differentiate between 

Addams Family, The (Bally 1992)

Addams Family, The Gold Edition (Bally 1992)

 

since the real table exists, but again I only added one version of the table.

Oh it's a very easy explanation why to differentiate between these mods.

 

When I first started building my collection with the existing XML, I was baffled by which table to use as the main one... which one was best? Also, A LOT of the existing artwork already had ULTRA or ULTIMATE in the image when there were other versions available. When I saw all the different names, I had no idea which one would be the BEST as I thought they all have their merits. Someone may rather play the REGULAR than the Ultimate so I compromised by including them all and obtaining artwork for all of them.  Each edition can be quite different, especially from the original recreation. In researching for hours, I came up with the best solution... use the latest version of each edition. 

 

Black Knight is a good example.

 

Black Knight (Williams)

Black Knight (Gold Edition) (Williams)

Black Knight (Ultimate Edition) (Williams)

Black Knight (ULTRA Edition) (Williams)

Black Knight 2000 (Williams)

 

It works great for me and I really love the wheel choices. I even created GENRE XML files for the different manufacturers and different ULTRA/Ultimate collections. The only thing I did not include was the year in the name (which is very easy to put back). Once I am done with the wheel art update you won't be disappointed. As far as does the table exist in reality... that doesn't matter to me at all. There are many homebrews for other systems included in the XML database, so why not these?

[malarrya]

Bally released 2 Monte Carlos

 

One in 1963 and the other in 1972,  Both tables cant have the same name of Monte Carlo (Bally)

 

http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1621

 

http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1623

 

I think I may add the year back to the filename after all. I like the idea of creating XML DBs by decade and this would make it easy to do so. I remember now why I excluded it. If a recreation of a table made in 1983 is the ORIGINAL and labeled 1983, what should the year be for an ULTRA or Ultimate? 1983 when the table was released or 2014 when the software MOD was created? In the XML I believe I am using the table release year but omitted it from the title.

[32assassin]

Mentioned this over in the Future Pinball thread, but -

 

We need to use the name of the file in the relevant torrent set for the name attribute in the database - this keeps it super easy for matching tables to database entries.  It makes no sense to use anything other that the existing torrent file name for the name attribute.  All this does it make matching a pain in the butt.

 

As for the description tag (this is what you see in the FE and RL) any sensible name scheme that makes sense is cool with me.  Obviously we use no-intro style naming where we can, though this will be slightly different.  I really wouldn't spend too much time on that though, for me 'TABLE NAME (Manufacturer)' would seem the best way forward - with manufacturer replaced with 'original' if it's an original table.

 

 

by this logic should we

add the CRC and the Dat file info  to the Hyeprspin naming scheme.  

Rom Name (Region) (CRC) (No-Intro version #)

as you mentioned

this keeps it super easy to matching roms to the database entries.

 

 

The main problem with keeping/adding the  name found on the torrent is that tables are always updated.

if you add a version to the XML,  in a few months, weeks or days the name on the XML will have to be updated when a table update  is released.

 

if you keep a standard name, the XML will only need to be updated when NEW tables are added.

as of now anyone is free to use what ever version of the table they choose,  they just need to rename it to match the XML.

 

this problem would be eliminated if their was an easy way to launch tables that don't match the XML name.

we could have a table in a folder (that matches the XML NAME)

Future Pinball Tables\ Table Name (Manufacturer Year)\

____________________________________________Original Torrent Name.FPT

____________________________________________required libraries

 

we could keep the original name with the version number and  easily swap out the table without a need to update the XML

but last I checked Rocketlauncher cant do that.

[malarrya]

OK, I've finished updating all my wheel images using a combination of what I already had, the different EDITION type tables, and around 50 of 32assassin's images that were better. All have been uploaded to the FTP. Like I said before, I have 687 images that match 687 tables along with 673 videos. I want to get to a rounded 700 if possible and with 32assassin's help I am sure that will happen. The only thing I don't know is do if he has all the videos for all his tables? 

 

EDIT: Going through them one more time, it looks like I have about a dozen or so I'd still like to fix.

[ninja2bceen]

I love the progress on this

[Guest]

by this logic should we

add the CRC and the Dat file info  to the Hyeprspin naming scheme.  

Rom Name (Region) (CRC) (No-Intro version #)

as you mentioned

this keeps it super easy to matching roms to the database entries.

 

 

The main problem with keeping/adding the  name found on the torrent is that tables are always updated.

if you add a version to the XML,  in a few months, weeks or days the name on the XML will have to be updated when a table update  is released.

 

if you keep a standard name, the XML will only need to be updated when NEW tables are added.

as of now anyone is free to use what ever version of the table they choose,  they just need to rename it to match the XML.

 

this problem would be eliminated if their was an easy way to launch tables that don't match the XML name.

we could have a table in a folder (that matches the XML NAME)

Future Pinball Tables\ Table Name (Manufacturer Year)\

____________________________________________Original Torrent Name.FPT

____________________________________________required libraries

 

we could keep the original name with the version number and  easily swap out the table without a need to update the XML

but last I checked Rocketlauncher cant do that.

 

 

Well maybe we should add that info to the XMLs for these systems - whatever helps to make the matching easier for folks would be really useful.  Though that seems a bit over complicated - given the fact we have name and description tags which can have different names.

 

I'm not sure that it would be as big a problem as you might originally think.  We don't need to update this XML every time a new table is released - we only need to update the XML when a new set is complied, which is months apart.

 

 

So, based on this we have two options:

 

- Keep the files names the same as those in the set.  This is my preferred option as it is the simplest, and works with the tools we already have.

- Use a different file naming scheme, and include the CRC info from the set dat in the XML.  If we do this, we will need a new tool in order to match up the tables with the XML.  This seems a bit overkill given the first option.

 

 

Would be interested to get thoughts on this.

[Tomkun]

How often are sets released anyway? The latest Future Pinball set is relatively recent, but the most recent Visual Pinball and PinMame sets (that I've seen) are years old.

[Guest]

How often are sets released anyway? The latest Future Pinball set is relatively recent, but the most recent Visual Pinball and PinMame sets (that I've seen) are years old.

Very sporadically- basically whenever someone decides to make one and post it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Guest]

I think I might be being a bit of an idiot here -

Can't we just put the CRC of the table zip file in the XML and have HyperTools match it all up? That should work right?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tomkun]

I think the issue with that is that some zip files have more than one version inside and we have no way of telling HyperSpin which one we want to load. It's also a waste of space if we only want one version or edition. If we put in the CRC of the table itself, that should work.

[malarrya]

I've amassed the 700 tables I was shooting for and will post the artwork and most of the videos for this project later today (Pacific time). I believe the best naming convention is as follows:

 

Table Name (Edition) (Mfg YYYY). However, for Original tables the year can change all the time so it should either be left off or the year of the original posting used.

 

Abra Ca Dabra (Ultimate Edition) (Gottlieb 1975).

 

I do believe there is a lot of merit to having different versions of the same table as "Abra Ca Dabra (Ultimate Edition) (Gottlieb 1975)" is quite a different playing experience than "Abra Ca Dabra (Gottlieb 1975)"

 

I've enjoyed working on this project and have no trouble taking the lead on renaming everything I have to the best naming scheme we come up with. I have all of my tables zipped up so it doesn't really matter what the name of the table is on the inside since I use Rocket Launcher. I will post again when the collection is complete. One thing to note, however, is that a lot of the videos are reused for different versions of the same table. There just isn't the volume out there yet to have a unique video for each edition. This is fine with me as I'd rather have a video of some sort than nothing at all.

[Tomkun]

That seems a fairly reasonable method to me. I'm also pro having different editions of tables providing the experience is sufficiently different. However, aren't we going to fall into the same trap that we were worried about before, that this is a, going to require renaming every file and b, going to make it very difficult to check revisions?

[malarrya]

That seems a fairly reasonable method to me. I'm also pro having different editions of tables providing the experience is sufficiently different. However, aren't we going to fall into the same trap that we were worried about before, that this is a, going to require renaming every file and b, going to make it very difficult to check revisions?

From what I can tell, the version of the table may change but the edition does not change. For example, in the case of the latest Back to the Future Ultimate Edition there are a few different types (ULTRA) and Ultimates 1.01 and 1.02. I think the end-user should not be concerned with what version of Ultimate the table he's using and just realize that it is an Ultimate Edition. That way if there are constant Ultimate or ULTRA updates the naming convention doesn't change. The good news is, I have already done all the renaming. Yes future pinball additions will require a name update but unless the Pinball developers start strictly adhering to some sort of naming standard and clean up their entire sites with much more organized and easier means of downloading, there's not much we can do.

 

Table 1.02 ULTRA Table 1.02 ULTRA (rar, 38.776 MB) stats 

Table 1.01 ULTIMATE Physics 2.6 Table 1.01 ULTIMATE Physics 2.6 (rar, 45.933 MB) stats 

Table 1.02 ULTIMATE Physics 2.6 Table 1.02 ULTIMATE Physics 2.6 (rar, 45.95 MB) stats 

 

I am using:

Back to the Future (Data East).zip

Back to the Future (ULTRA Edition) (Data East).zip

Back to the Future (Ultimate Edition) (Data East).zip

 

 

The files will soon also contain the year.

Thoughts?

 

EDIT: You know there is some VP or FP fan out there has done all of this already. I mean really done all of it... videos for everything, artwork for everything, naming convention standardized, etc. It would be nice if they shared their knowledge and setup but I would imagine that person is not on the Hyperspin boards... Hyperpin maybe but then again we're attempting to manage 700 tables not 100 of the best.