Do you know Greece?

[dark13]

Lots of things has been said about the situation of Greece and Europe, why it should stay in UE or leave it. If you want to read the point of view of 100 greek citizens and know what's actually happening in Greece here's an interesting reading

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/jun/30/greece-euro-referendum-100-greeks-give-their-view#item-4

[SIMPLYAUSTIN]

Well this really is a can of worms....

[phulshof]

Indeed. The average person has no idea what the cause of this whole crisis is, but the average Greek is suffering the consequences of mismanagement and corruption.

[bartmarley]

Yes it's sad for greece population, but there politics have LIED on there economic stats to enter EU. The situation is 100% there own fault.

[iNTiGOD]

Yes it's sad for greece population, but there politics have LIED on there economic stats to enter EU. The situation is 100% there own fault.

True.... but banking firms such as Goldman Sachs fudged the books on behalf of Greece.

I feel that Greece's best bet is to leave the Euro currency and declare bankruptcy. They will never be able to pay back the money. There are several European countries which don't use the Euro e.g. Denmark & Sweden.

[bartmarley]

Yes, germany in 1953 just erased around 60% of there debt just like dat.

Italy, Spain and other countries round the world have a debt superior thant 100% of there pib

USA raise up or down the dollar value when they need it to create virtual cash

FMI just refund a lot of corrupted banks

 

So yes you right, Greece could be helped. They MUST be helped btw, as it's the origin of occidental culture, if no greece we surely still be some middle age countries burning people saying eart is a round planet turning around the sun

[dark13]

Indeed. The average person has no idea what the cause of this whole crisis is, but the average Greek is suffering the consequences of mismanagement and corruption.

 

Yeah, it is possible to read about politics and economy on many other places, what I was interested in was not the reason of greece's demise but the consequences it has on population. These days lots of people have strong idea about greece, but do they know what's actually happening in greece in terms of people's lives? Yaeh, this can be a can of worms, it's the main reason why I didn't express my opinion.

 

@bartmarley

50% of the debt germany had with europe (first and second world war) was deleted, while russia wanted all their money back https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_External_Debts . One of the reason for nazism's arise, actually, was the extremely poor condition of german's economy after first world war...

[guyverjay]

Everyone is to blame here, dodgy politicians and unelected bureaucrats cooking the books and spending like there is no tomorrow and Greeks not paying their taxes and retiring too early

[Monyet]

Yes, avoiding tax became a way of life for most Greeks when they were under the control of the Turks and it continues today which is a big part of this, but then you have the banks and men in power being corrupt and it's just unsustainable. But apart from free thought, maths, theatre, science, philosophy and gyros - What have the Greeks Ever done For US???!

[ghutch92]

Wow I didn't realize that the Greek public sector employment was that big (percentage of population, not absolute totals).

[phulshof]

Greece suffers from a number of problems:

- Corruption (which is logical in poverty situations).

- Tax evasion by the rich.

- Being part of the Euro.

 

Normally, a country hit by the crisis would devalue its currency in order to increase export, but Greece did not have that option by being part of the Euro. In stead, they were forced to simulate the effects by lowering salaries, pensions, etc. The result is that the average Greek is working 60+ hours a week just to stay alive, while some large companies and wealthy businessmen are making a fortune. Unemployment is at 25-30%, which means that low salaries can easily be forced upon workers, since there are 10 people waiting in line to take your place.

 

Corruption is not something easily solved, especially when poverty rules, and is certainly not solved quickly. In the mean time, Greece is facing enormous debts that it simply cannot pay off. As for the solution? Beats me... Pumping more money into the country will not solve the issue unless the other problems are solved, and most of that money would go to paying off loans in stead of stimulating the economy.

[zomboided]

But apart from free thought, maths, theatre, science, philosophy and gyros - What have the Greeks Ever done For US???!

 

This entirely.  Where were the Greeks when the US&A urgently needed cheese and bacon.

[dark13]

I'll tell you 2 more thing.

 

A big problem of greece was military expenses, near to 4% GDP. USA is around 4.3% in 2014 and in europe the average is 2%. Do you know who's selling arms to greece? USA, of course, then germany, france, italy, and go on. The main fact is some german's factories bribed greek officials to buy more arms than they really needed  http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greece-arrests-two-suspects-in-submarine-bribery-case-a-944446.html Moreover it is believed (not confirmed) that merkel and sarkozy asked greece to buy their arms to get financial help from UE http://www.lepointinternational.com/it/politica/europa/550-the-submarine-deals-that-helped-sink-greece-.html

 

Another thing... greece has a SERIUOS public debt problem (well, even italy and USA have) but the REAL problem in greece was about PRIVATE debts. Basically greek banks lent money to people who could not repay them. Are you thinking to lehman brothers and subprime crisis? No, nothing so "big", think more to personal loan, probably more similar to american credit card system.

 

BLUE: PUBLIC debt

RED: PRIVATE debt

 

Most of the money lent by UE to greece actually were used to save banks. Banks are important for modern economy BUT banks are not owned by "state"... last time I checked greece was not a communist country
 

[dark13]

Well, I think the whole thing can be summarized with this...

 

[phulshof]

I'm not sure if I agree with you there, dark13. Greece is asking for new loans while the last has not been paid back yet. It's only logical that those who are to lend the money are asking for assurances that it's likely they'll see their money again at some point in the future.

[bigpat321]

There broke

[dark13]

I'm not sure if I agree with you there, dark13. Greece is asking for new loans while the last has not been paid back yet. It's only logical that those who are to lend the money are asking for assurances that it's likely they'll see their money again at some point in the future.

 

To be more exact greece is asking for new loans to pay current debts and the main problem is greece will NEVER be able to pay back their debts as time has proven how austerity policy has a serious negative impact on a state's economy. The main difference between italy and greece is probably that italy CAN'T pay interest on public debt without contracting new debts while greece, right now, can't even mantaining state itself with state's income. To be honest these situations are not that different from USA situation, USA public debt's is increasing as running the state simply costs too much. The difference, again, is greece's population is 11M while USA is 321M, italy is 60M. More people, obviously, mean bigger GDP and more industry, so the there's a better growth probability*.

Lets' examinate the whole thing: Tsipras did not accept UE conditions, so asked greek people if he should accept UE's terms, citizens told him "NO", then he sat back to negotiating table only to accept a deal that is basically WORST than the previous one. This is crazy, completely crazy, and it's totally NOT democracy.

Theres' a precise reason why the image has a 50% off sticker: UE asked greece to avoid bank nationalisation WHILE half of the income that will be made from greek national's assets sales will directly go into banks.

* Consider that I'm GREATLY simplifying things when writing about differences that exists between greece, italy and USA, there are A LOT of more variables to take in the account. The most notable thing is public debt is usually considered a problem beyond a certain % of GDP.

[koytoyroy]

i just see that post.i cant explain good the situation because of mu english but i will try with not to many words.

 

the problem starts when eu and greek politcs make fake numbers so they can put us in euro.

after that germany companys like siemens paid our goverments behind the scenes so they can sell us big parts for public works.

when this scandal came off with siemens the one who made it left to germany and they dont let us to judge him.

also germany wants greece in the eu to sell defence weapons.

with another one from ex goverment the made a contract and they sell some submissions(i think its the word) which greece never get them and of course the one greek who made the contract also get moneys to make it run....

there are many many scandals behind greece goverment and germany.

now.the reason we ask to erase the debt.

this debt will never get paid off.

because of the contracts they made we should get money from eu all the time to pay back other loans that they gave us.

 

now.

we work for 400 euros per month.

they put tax into everything.

germany and eu want to tax higher and higher everything even the milk or pasta.

 

the reason of all this is not that easy to explain here.

 

the one is that our politics are really dirty so they never can get anything from eu.

eu and especially germany looks like they want to kill our tourism and buy anything.

its not so hard to understand that they want to buy greece.

 

many airports owned by germans.

many hotels owned by germans.

they ask now for our ports.

they ask for our islands.

they ask for every state build.

 

german is the leader in eu.and yes the best solution looks like to go out from euro.

but then we will lose everything.if we go back to drachma they will buy everything for cheaper.

the only way to make it better now in greece is one and only.

 

erase part of debt.this debt is just the interest of old loans.we will never pay back.....there is no way when they made us to take loans to pay loans.they know its a big fault but....

 

the result of all this.

every one looking how to get out of here...

 

none can live with 400 euros and pay 500 euros for taxes and etc....they now it.

 

as for one guy who asks what we made...i think is a joke.

maybe now we are all fault.but of corse we didnt create this.

 

almost forgot....

when goldman sachs felt..... they looking how to save greek banks because germans owns big part of them(i cant explain in engllish)

then they made our goverment to move the debts of banks to state.this is the biggest part of our debt now.

 

sorry for the big post.

[Monyet]

"as for one guy who asks what we made...i think is a joke.

maybe now we are all fault.but of corse we didnt create this."

 

@koytoyroy

 

I think you mean me? Yes it is a joke. It was a reference to Monty Pythons Life of Brian where the people lament the Romans by saying they haven't helped the world in any way except building Roads, Aqueduct, etc, etc.

[koytoyroy]

i just didnt get it

my bad english you see

 

anyway.this is a huge discusion.

but what greeks do before many years doesnt mean we are still in same situation.

we been worst and worst.

thats all

[iNTiGOD]

Γεια σου φίλε

[koytoyroy]

Γεια σου κ σε σένα!!!

Έλληνας?

[iNTiGOD]

Οι δύο γονείς μου γεννήθηκαν στην Ελλάδα, αλλά εγώ γεννήθηκα και ζω στην Αυστραλία (kritikos)