Metalzoic Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 So I decided to take notice of the display and looked specifically for scanlines. Yeah, that's what I noticed too. In my settings I have them turned way down. Mask darkness down around .12, Scanline darkness at about 0.50 one of the other scanline settings at or below 0.50. defocus up to 0.10. red converge off by 0.02 etc... Setting it up side-by-side with the real thing makes you realize how overdone some things are in HLSL. I now have it really close to an exact match. It's just the color settings that are driving me mad (red specifically). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmoses Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Hoping to see your settings soon Metalzoic. The fact that you are working with a Neo-Geo cabinet right next to it should be interesting to see. I always enjoy testing out new HLSL settings. With the recent enhancements they keep getting better looking. Different games used different monitors of which some had more prevalent scan lines. Being that the games are so old they may not even have the original monitor in them. I keep playing around with HLSL and also GLSL and they both keep getting better. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potts43 Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I'm up in Newcastle Upon Tyne and stumbled on Game 2.0 at the Life Centre. There were loads of old systems to play and a small arcade section with game like Defender, Track & Field, Missile Commmand, Mappy and a cocktail with Phoenix. So I decided to take notice of the display and looked specifically for scanlines. What I found was a lack of scanlines, they were closer to the Timothy Lottes shader. What I found even more interesting was Asteroids. Many people on this forum bang on about the point marks and bloom. None of those were present, the only thing to note was the phosphor trails and how bright the bullets were. No beam flicker either, it was closest to Mame with no hlsl or beam flicker. I suppose it depends on how old the hardware is, I personally prefer the look to be fresh from the factory. I also had a good on a Virtual boy which did give me a bit of motion sickness after a few minutes. It looked good though. Shame you couldn't grab stills to match up hlsl / glsl back at home [emoji16] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigapig Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I not ditching scanlines Shame you couldn't grab stills to match up hlsl / glsl back at home [emoji16] I'm going to NERG in the morning so I can get some there, but it is hard to photograph it. Like I said the closet I've seen is the glsl lottes shader to what I saw today. I'm not going to ditch scanlines anyway because I do like the effect. The monitors could be pal I suppose and maybe scanlines were more pronounced on tv screens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epayson85 Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I literally grew up on arcades. My father still works on them for a living and did while I was growing up. The company he works for use to do vending machines and arcade games. Then eventually just arcade games and now has really gotten into things like touch tunes. Basically they buy and maintain the hardware, rent it to arcades, bars, and other businesses, and take a portion of the money. I grew up with the games constantly at my house. In fact the majority of my childhood I had a pac-man, asteroids, centipede, and a galaga in my basement as well as a few rotating pinball machines. He basically would get them cheap when he could, refinish them, and then sell them to collectors. I can say I have no idea what everyone's fascination is with scan lines and all these other effects. With a brand new monitor in them those things were sharp and clear. I do like what Gigapig said about the trails though on Asteroids, o the memories haha. Actually something I miss about the old games were the control panels that had some metal paneling and if you placed your arm a certain way on them while holding something else on the machine you would get shocked hahaha. Maybe I just only ever dealt with new machines or my father knew how to make them look amazing, but besides maybe some ghosting on really old monitors I don't recall any big difference between what was on the big CRTs and what I get on my LCD now. O btw if anyone is looking to repair any old machines and needs to get their hands on parts or needs advice... my Dad is the guy to talk to. He has so many old boards that he keeps because so many collectors come to him with broken machines that they want redone. His specialty is honestly pinball machines, but he can repair old boards and the ones he can't he has a guy down in Mass that he hires that does unbelievable board repair. I used him years ago when I was putting a chip on my Wii before the soft modding came out. I botched that solder job lol and broke my wii... way to small for me to be doing. However, he was able to repair it and get my chip on there in literally less than 5 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffin518 Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 Scanlines were definitely more pronounced on CRT TV screens... seems like I remember them from the arcades of my youth, but it's been so long. I'm anxiously awaiting Metalzoic's side-by-side settings, very curious now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffin518 Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 I happened to come across this interesting tread from 2013 starring our own cmoses. There's some interesting, low level technical information here: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45026&start=270 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metalzoic Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 OK, after literally another 6 1/2 hours straight of side-by-side tweaking I think I'm done. Done enough at least. Getting the color shades and hues matched was a bitch (I stripped all color settings to zero and slowly built them back up testing across many hard to match Shodown color palettes). But I now have it so that you can see the difference between reddish-orange and orangish-red. Colors are more vibrant on my LCD and I have it adjusted for saturation at 1.20, but if I lower it to 1.00 it is nearly an exact match for the less vibrant CRT monitor. Scanlines and masking are as close to the real thing as I think I'll be able to get after 12+ hours total tuning (seriously...). Side-by-side you can't tell a difference until you get your face right up to the CRT and can actually see the pixels break up. You might notice in my settings that scanline darkness, brightness, and mask darkness are all much lower than most setups. I'm also using SlotMask.png as it seemed to produce the closest to real result. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's pretty damn close to real. EDIT: Actually after testing a few more games I think I have the color just a bit to muted so I'll probably up some of the color settings. Here's a video that does an OK job of showing a comparison. The CRT doesn't photograph well enough to compare. I uploaded this to Youtube, but it compressed it so bad it lost all detail so here's the raw video at higher quality. http://1drv.ms/1fvw62I Lesser quality youtube vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CNh-bR2waA Here's the settings # DIRECT3D POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS # hlsl_enable 1 hlslpath hlsl hlsl_prescale_x 6 hlsl_prescale_y 6 hlsl_preset -1 hlsl_write 1 hlsl_snap_width 2048 hlsl_snap_height 1536 shadow_mask_alpha 0.14 shadow_mask_texture SlotMask.png shadow_mask_x_count 6 shadow_mask_y_count 4 shadow_mask_usize 0.1875 shadow_mask_vsize 0.1875 shadow_mask_uoffset 0.0 shadow_mask_voffset 0.0 curvature 0.10 round_corner 0.15 reflection 0.05 vignetting 0.24 scanline_alpha 0.58 scanline_size 1.05 scanline_height 0.75 scanline_bright_scale 1.30 scanline_bright_offset 0.55 scanline_jitter 0.05 defocus 1.00,0.50 converge_x 0.4,0.0,-0.3 converge_y 0.0,0.0,0.0 radial_converge_x 0.2,0.0,-0.2 radial_converge_y 0.0,0.0,0.0 red_ratio 0.90,0.05,0.05 grn_ratio 0.10,0.80,0.10 blu_ratio 0.10,0.0,0.90 saturation 1.20 offset -0.05,0.03,0.01 scale 0.96,1.0,1.0 power 1.35,1.25,1.10 floor 0.00,0.03,0.03 phosphor_life 0.40,0.35,0.30 # # NTSC POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS # yiq_enable 0 yiq_cc 3.59754545 yiq_a 0.5 yiq_b 0.5 yiq_o 1.570796325 yiq_p 1.0 yiq_n 1.0 yiq_y 6.0 yiq_i 1.2 yiq_q 0.6 yiq_scan_time 52.6 yiq_phase_count 2 # # VECTOR POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS # vector_length_scale 0.8 vector_length_ratio 500.0 # # BLOOM POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS # vector_bloom_scale 0.3 raster_bloom_scale 0.225 bloom_lvl0_weight 1.0 bloom_lvl1_weight 0.21 bloom_lvl2_weight 0.19 bloom_lvl3_weight 0.17 bloom_lvl4_weight 0.15 bloom_lvl5_weight 0.14 bloom_lvl6_weight 0.13 bloom_lvl7_weight 0.12 bloom_lvl8_weight 0.11 bloom_lvl9_weight 0.10 bloom_lvl10_weight 0.09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potts43 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Great effort! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigapig Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Yes looking good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffin518 Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 Great work, Metalzoic! I'll try and give your settings a shot tongiht. I'm a little nervous about my aged system's ability to perform with the smaller mask and higher hlsl_prescale settings but it's worth a shot. If my system is too bogged down, I may try and produce similar results with ShadowMask... maybe then we'd have high and low end comparable settings for the community to work off of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougan78 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Very nice will swap these in tonight as well. Thanks for your time spent on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metalzoic Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 OK, made some additional color changes. Scanline brightness overdrive = 0.65 Saturation = 140 Red scale = 0.95 Green scale = 0.94 Green gamma = 130 Those let me bring up the vividness without damaging the hue or blowing out red to much. Although I then had to reign in the green some to even it out. If anyone out there is a master at color correction (I'm sure not) please feel free to improve my color settings. (Keep in mind these settings are on my BenQ gaming monitor that is already very vivid) Bloom changes. Raster bloom scale = .425 Bloom level 1 = 0.35 Bloom level 2 = 0.25 Those changes helped me blow out white/lights more like the real monitor. Now I'm getting somewhere! # DIRECT3D POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS # hlsl_enable 1 hlslpath hlsl hlsl_prescale_x 6 hlsl_prescale_y 6 hlsl_preset -1 hlsl_write 1 hlsl_snap_width 2048 hlsl_snap_height 1536 shadow_mask_alpha 0.14 shadow_mask_texture SlotMask.png shadow_mask_x_count 6 shadow_mask_y_count 4 shadow_mask_usize 0.1875 shadow_mask_vsize 0.1875 shadow_mask_uoffset 0.0 shadow_mask_voffset 0.0 curvature 0.10 round_corner 0.15 reflection 0.05 vignetting 0.24 scanline_alpha 0.58 scanline_size 1.05 scanline_height 0.75 scanline_bright_scale 1.30 scanline_bright_offset 0.65 scanline_jitter 0.05 defocus 1.00,0.50 converge_x 0.4,0.0,-0.3 converge_y 0.0,0.0,0.0 radial_converge_x 0.2,0.0,-0.2 radial_converge_y 0.0,0.0,0.0 red_ratio 0.90,0.05,0.05 grn_ratio 0.10,0.80,0.10 blu_ratio 0.10,0.0,0.90 saturation 1.40 offset -0.05,0.03,0.01 scale 0.96,0.94,1.0 power 1.35,1.30,1.10 floor 0.00,0.03,0.03 phosphor_life 0.40,0.35,0.30 # # NTSC POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS # yiq_enable 0 yiq_cc 3.59754545 yiq_a 0.5 yiq_b 0.5 yiq_o 1.570796325 yiq_p 1.0 yiq_n 1.0 yiq_y 6.0 yiq_i 1.2 yiq_q 0.6 yiq_scan_time 52.6 yiq_phase_count 2 # # VECTOR POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS # vector_length_scale 0.8 vector_length_ratio 500.0 # # BLOOM POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS # vector_bloom_scale 0.3 raster_bloom_scale 0.425 bloom_lvl0_weight 1.0 bloom_lvl1_weight 0.35 bloom_lvl2_weight 0.25 bloom_lvl3_weight 0.17 bloom_lvl4_weight 0.15 bloom_lvl5_weight 0.14 bloom_lvl6_weight 0.13 bloom_lvl7_weight 0.12 bloom_lvl8_weight 0.11 bloom_lvl9_weight 0.10 bloom_lvl10_weight 0.09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metalzoic Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 So to set an ini for Horizontal and Vertical games I simply name them Horizontal.ini and Vertical.ini? (I'm guessing I can't have one named mame.ini if I do that?) Also what changes do you guys typically make to the vertical version compared to horizontal? And is there a way to have an .ini that is game specific for more than just brightness, contrast and gamma (HLSL settings, saturation etc...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potts43 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 So to set an ini for Horizontal and Vertical games I simply name them Horizontal.ini and Vertical.ini? (I'm guessing I can't have one named mame.ini if I do that?) Also what changes do you guys typically make to the vertical version compared to horizontal? And is there a way to have an .ini that is game specific for more than just brightness, contrast and gamma (HLSL settings, saturation etc...) Vertical Horizont Vector Mame Are typically used...correct spellings. Please remember if you set the ini to write 1 then it will create per game ini's but based off your mame.ini. Hlsl sliders are not saved. It's a bug. So if you mess with the sliders you need to write them down and edit the game ini manually. The Glsl OpenGL sliders are saved automatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffin518 Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 Metalzoic, These settings look great, and really true to what I've seen on original monitors, but the slot mask absolutely destroys my older machine. Substituting ShadowMask makes all the difference to me while only sacrificing a little bit of the fidelity. I happened to go to a drive-in theater tonight (I know, right?!) and when I went to get some popcorn from the concessions stand I noticed they had an original Simpsons 4P. Everything looked original, clearly hadn't been updated... so of course I spent a lot of time staring at the monitor, while about 12 inches away. I'm sure people thought I was nuts. Anyway, the settings we're playing with (scanlines broken up by the vertical slots) look so unbelievably close to that CRT monitor. I was really impressed with how far HLSL has come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougan78 Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 OK, made some additional color changes. Scanline brightness overdrive = 0.65 Saturation = 140 Red scale = 0.95 Green scale = 0.94 Green gamma = 130 Those let me bring up the vividness without damaging the hue or blowing out red to much. Although I then had to reign in the green some to even it out. If anyone out there is a master at color correction (I'm sure not) please feel free to improve my color settings. (Keep in mind these settings are on my BenQ gaming monitor that is already very vivid) Bloom changes. Raster bloom scale = .425 Bloom level 1 = 0.35 Bloom level 2 = 0.25 Those changes helped me blow out white/lights more like the real monitor. Now I'm getting somewhere! # DIRECT3D POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS # hlsl_enable 1 hlslpath hlsl hlsl_prescale_x 6 hlsl_prescale_y 6 hlsl_preset -1 hlsl_write 1 hlsl_snap_width 2048 hlsl_snap_height 1536 shadow_mask_alpha 0.14 shadow_mask_texture SlotMask.png shadow_mask_x_count 6 shadow_mask_y_count 4 shadow_mask_usize 0.1875 shadow_mask_vsize 0.1875 shadow_mask_uoffset 0.0 shadow_mask_voffset 0.0 curvature 0.10 round_corner 0.15 reflection 0.05 vignetting 0.24 scanline_alpha 0.58 scanline_size 1.05 scanline_height 0.75 scanline_bright_scale 1.30 scanline_bright_offset 0.65 scanline_jitter 0.05 defocus 1.00,0.50 converge_x 0.4,0.0,-0.3 converge_y 0.0,0.0,0.0 radial_converge_x 0.2,0.0,-0.2 radial_converge_y 0.0,0.0,0.0 red_ratio 0.90,0.05,0.05 grn_ratio 0.10,0.80,0.10 blu_ratio 0.10,0.0,0.90 saturation 1.40 offset -0.05,0.03,0.01 scale 0.96,0.94,1.0 power 1.35,1.30,1.10 floor 0.00,0.03,0.03 phosphor_life 0.40,0.35,0.30 # # NTSC POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS # yiq_enable 0 yiq_cc 3.59754545 yiq_a 0.5 yiq_b 0.5 yiq_o 1.570796325 yiq_p 1.0 yiq_n 1.0 yiq_y 6.0 yiq_i 1.2 yiq_q 0.6 yiq_scan_time 52.6 yiq_phase_count 2 # # VECTOR POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS # vector_length_scale 0.8 vector_length_ratio 500.0 # # BLOOM POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS # vector_bloom_scale 0.3 raster_bloom_scale 0.425 bloom_lvl0_weight 1.0 bloom_lvl1_weight 0.35 bloom_lvl2_weight 0.25 bloom_lvl3_weight 0.17 bloom_lvl4_weight 0.15 bloom_lvl5_weight 0.14 bloom_lvl6_weight 0.13 bloom_lvl7_weight 0.12 bloom_lvl8_weight 0.11 bloom_lvl9_weight 0.10 bloom_lvl10_weight 0.09 I have a nvidia k2000 card and these seem to be fine on my computer. I have tested using hlsl in the past and never have liked it on my setup. I must say that either settings are nice and I will just be leaving hlsl on for everything in mame now. I am a believer. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metalzoic Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I have a nvidia k2000 card and these seem to be fine on my computer. I have tested using hlsl in the past and never have liked it on my setup. I must say that either settings are nice and I will just be leaving hlsl on for everything in mame now. I am a believer. Thanks again! Cool, glad they seem to look good on your setups too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hutty Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Thanks metalzoic, I just built cabinet with a 32" widescreen tv as the monitor and your settings look incredible on it, very helpful! EDIT: Has anyone been able to eliminate tearing while using hlsl without speeding the game up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougan78 Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Thanks metalzoic, I just built cabinet with a 32" widescreen tv as the monitor and your settings look incredible on it, very helpful! EDIT: Has anyone been able to eliminate tearing while using hlsl without speeding the game up? Turn Vsync on maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hutty Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Turn Vsync on maybe? Yeah, I've tried that, turned on triple buffering, tried forcing vsync through AMD drivers too without luck, I feel like an idiot. From what little I could find on the issue it seems like it might not be possible without introducing a whole lot of lag. Oh well, not that big of a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metalzoic Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Glad the settings work well for you. I haven't had any tearing issues yet, what games id you see it on? For comparison I'm running an AMD R9 280 and i3 cpu and I didn't even know there were separate AMD driver settings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffin518 Posted June 28, 2015 Author Share Posted June 28, 2015 No tearing issues here, either, though I vaguely recall having problems when I was using stock MAME. Hutty: Have you tried Jumpstile's MAMEUIFX builds? It has a setting for v-sync within the UI (ie not set at the driver level). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffin518 Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 Has anyone else found that these settings really don't look all that great for vertical games, especially when forced to be a little smaller by a bezel? I've been playing with the settings for a while, and am just not really satisfied. It just doesn't look right. Thoughts? Edit: Good examples are 1942 and Pacman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigapig Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 They are fine here and very close to what I had already, but you are right when you shrink the image or when the bezel code adjusts it then the effect can be exaggerated. You then get into having per game ini's and one bezel for that game, or just using one default bezel for each orientation and hopefully adjust the hlsl settings to make it look right when smaller. Same thing with glsl. Would it be the Prescale that causes it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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